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Peter Taylor Documentary Presenter
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,600
General Pervez Musharraf
was President of Pakistan
throughout most of this time,

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when many terror suspects
were interrogated.

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And Musharraf was a crucial ally
in the West's war against Al-Qaeda.

Musharraf

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We are dealing with vicious people

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and we have to get information.

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Now, if we are extremely decent,

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we then don't get any information.

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We need to allow leeway
to the intelligence operatives,
the people who interrogate.

Peter Taylor - Interviewer201
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,120
Does the end justify the means

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to extract information, intelligence
from suspected terrorists

Musharraf
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who are reluctant to talk?

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To an extent, yes.

Sir David Omand00:32:40,760 -->
00:32:45,680
I'm very clear that we are not and
have not been complicit in torture.

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And I'm in no doubt that
all the countries concerned

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including Pakistan
and indeed the United States

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were very well aware
of what British policy was,

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which was we don't do this,
we don't ask other people to do it.


Peter Taylor - Interviewer------------------------
-
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The British Government say they told
Pakistan, perhaps you directly,

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that they do not want the ISI
to torture British citizens,
British subjects.

455
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Have you any recollection
of that being said to you

456
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on behalf of the British Government?


Musharraf
----------------
457
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Never.

458
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,960
Never once, I don't remember at all.

Peter Taylor - Interviewer459
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They haven't said to you,
"We're concerned about

460
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"the treatment that British subjects
are getting in Pakistan, please
don't do it, don't torture them."

461
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No. You don't agree with it?

Musharraf
462
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No, no. Nothing? Not at all.

Peter Taylor - Interviewer463
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Would you be surprised
if they'd said that to you?

Musharraf
464
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Well, maybe they wanted us to
carry on whatever we were doing.

465
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,560
It was a tacit approval
of whatever we were doing.

Peter Taylor - Interviewer466
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,960
President Musharraf told me that
"maybe they wanted us to carry on

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"with whatever we were doing,
it was tacit approval."
-----

Baroness Manningham-Buller (M15)468
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That's what... He's wrong. There
was no tacit approval of torture.

Peter Taylor - Interviewer469
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,560
There was no blind eye turned? No.

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Is Britain complicit in torture?

Baroness Manningham-Buller (M15)471
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,640
No.

472
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I think this raises
a much broader question.

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Al-Qaeda is a global threat.

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To counter it,

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we need to talk to
services throughout the world.

476
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We have to be careful and cautious
in some of those relationships,

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but to decide that we're never going
to talk to the following 50 countries

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in any circumstances
means that you're deciding

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deliberately not to try and find out
information that you need to know.

Peter Taylor Documentary Presenter480
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And that's the difficult dilemma.

481
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MI5 cannot avoid dealing with
Pakistan's intelligence services,
whatever their notoriety.

482
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Pakistan is the crucible
of Al-Qaeda's operations.

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Hundreds of young Britons
have travelled there
for terrorist training